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Ebenezer
Aug 2, 2019 10:15:13 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Allenw on Aug 2, 2019 10:15:13 GMT -6
I know some cattle definitely require more feed then others to stay in condition, making them less desirable under our lomited conditions. I don't know if it's high milk production or simply using feedwagon bulls not raised for actual range conditions but selected for proped up epds.
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Post by M-5 on Aug 2, 2019 10:44:44 GMT -6
Very few raise bulls to sell that are not conditioned in the east. Idk how it is done out west . I've seen way to many look like crap after 3 mths of breeding and the owners don't know why.
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Post by okie on Aug 2, 2019 11:18:04 GMT -6
Very few raise bulls to sell that are not conditioned in the east. Idk how it is done out west . I've seen way to many look like crap after 3 mths of breeding and the owners don't know why. That's pretty much everywhere I've been. No matter how much time we spend talking about overconditioned bulls they still get sold that way because people just love to buy those slick, fat bulls.
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Post by randy on Aug 2, 2019 16:28:42 GMT -6
Biggest fattest bulls will sell first every time.
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Post by simangking on Aug 3, 2019 22:40:48 GMT -6
Very few raise bulls to sell that are not conditioned in the east. Idk how it is done out west . I've seen way to many look like crap after 3 mths of breeding and the owners don't know why. That's pretty much everywhere I've been. No matter how much time we spend talking about overconditioned bulls they still get sold that way because people just love to buy those slick, fat bulls. A lot of those kinds of buyers couldn't find a good in any condition.
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Post by Allenw on Aug 4, 2019 11:56:27 GMT -6
I know some cattle definitely require more feed then others to stay in condition, making them less desirable under our lomited conditions. I don't know if it's high milk production or simply using feedwagon bulls not raised for actual range conditions but selected for proped up epds. I didn't type this out how I meant it to come out so I'll see if I can change directions a bit here. I don't disagree with anybody that most bulls are presented at bull sales as too fat or at least plenty conditioned. I've heard of some pretty sorry bulls coming out from under all that fat when it melted off.
When I said feed wagon bulls I was thinking bulls descended from feed wagon cattle, cattle that have never been allowed to be stressed by their environment. Allowing cattle with higher feed demands then their environment will support to artificially rise to the top.
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Post by sleepy on Aug 4, 2019 13:28:26 GMT -6
My state freeze brands bulls from the bull test with a map of NC on the hip. They send the bulls that fall out of the test to the stockyard. Some are sore footed, some probably failed the bse, some are fools, all are way too fat. I'm talking finished. They look just like choice angus steers. That's basically what they are, and that's what they're used for once they hit the sale ring. The last ones I saw they're cods were even full of fat. They sell well, as specialty finished bulls. I don't attend the main event to ever see the bulls that make the sale, but I know they have been on the same ration and I would have to assume they are just as fat. Later in the year it's not unusual to see, a 2yr old rack of bones in the kill pen with a map of NC on his hip. A lot of them fail because people just take them home and "turn them out". Not trying to sound like Brookhill here, but people really do that shit. Be just like getting a choice steer out of a feedyard, and turning him out on short grass. They'll do more than just melt, some will dang near die. I'm pretty sure the bull gets the blame but it is what it is. When I need a bull I keep one eye open for one of these, Kenny Thomas style bulls. No shame in my game either, Mr. Kenny lol.
When I was a younger, these bulls were not all black. There was an even mixture of Charolais, simmental, Hereford, and even the black bulls were much different than they are today. The feed test back then, made power house muscle bulls. I guess the use of carcass data in selection has changed the current bulls to the easy finishing type we have today. That might be good for the industry overall, but a gentleman farmer better be careful or his mew purchase might be unrecognizable in a few months. They sure need a step down period after coming off a bull test. I think today more than ever.
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Post by chocolatecow on Aug 4, 2019 16:08:47 GMT -6
Another thing I learned with the over fed, over fat bulls is the amount of grain they receive can permanently damage their liver (liver abscesses) so no cooling down period will ever make any difference. If a breeder is feeding 30lbs of grain per head, per day (yep, you read that right) that yearling bull is most likely gonna have some issues.
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Post by ebenezer on Aug 4, 2019 18:47:34 GMT -6
Before the marbling craze there was the growth craze just prior to the calving ease craze. I remember hearing the extension head for beef tell that cows HAD to be challenged on BW and some pulling was going to be necessary. That was the muscle bulls you mentioned. The Calving ease bulls only made token shows in the tests as they could not turn the numbers. Now with high marbling sought as the brass ring to almost always grab, so many of the bulls on test barely make 1.00 REA/CWT. Steers and cull heifers need to be tested while breeder bulls and replacement heifers sibs need to be slowly developed yet known for the data generated by the sibs that are fed out. That would be a full trust in EPDs to see it translate to the next generation and use the data as a whole rather than trying to make one phenomenal son or daughter from the 100's or 1000's. But we have a strong tradition of "feeding the bull" while talking EPDs but not really applying the full opportunities offered by EPDs.
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Post by ebenezer on Aug 4, 2019 18:50:53 GMT -6
Another thing I learned with the over fed, over fat bulls is the amount of grain they receive can permanently damage their liver (liver abscesses) so no cooling down period will ever make any difference. If a breeder is feeding 30lbs of grain per head, per day (yep, you read that right) that yearling bull is most likely gonna have some issues. Neighbor bought silage developed bulls one time and they never got those bulls to fully settle in on grazing pastures. They were useful for years but looked starved and always had loose stools even on winter hay. I guess the rumens never got fully populated with the right bacteria or else there was damage like you mentioned. But the calves did fine.
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Post by bulltrader on Aug 4, 2019 20:39:01 GMT -6
My state freeze brands bulls from the bull test with a map of NC on the hip. They send the bulls that fall out of the test to the stockyard. Some are sore footed, some probably failed the bse, some are fools, all are way too fat. I'm talking finished. They look just like choice angus steers. That's basically what they are, and that's what they're used for once they hit the sale ring. The last ones I saw they're cods were even full of fat. They sell well, as specialty finished bulls. I don't attend the main event to ever see the bulls that make the sale, but I know they have been on the same ration and I would have to assume they are just as fat. Later in the year it's not unusual to see, a 2yr old rack of bones in the kill pen with a map of NC on his hip. A lot of them fail because people just take them home and "turn them out". Not trying to sound like Brookhill here, but people really do that shit. Be just like getting a choice steer out of a feedyard, and turning him out on short grass. They'll do more than just melt, some will dang near die. I'm pretty sure the bull gets the blame but it is what it is. When I need a bull I keep one eye open for one of these, Kenny Thomas style bulls. No shame in my game either, Mr. Kenny lol. When I was a younger, these bulls were not all black. There was an even mixture of Charolais, simmental, Hereford, and even the black bulls were much different than they are today. The feed test back then, made power house muscle bulls. I guess the use of carcass data in selection has changed the current bulls to the easy finishing type we have today. That might be good for the industry overall, but a gentleman farmer better be careful or his mew purchase might be unrecognizable in a few months. They sure need a step down period after coming off a bull test. I think today more than ever. I'm proud to have an impact on someone. True Grit and his wife seen a few of my thin grass cows and bulls yesterday. Maybe they will chime in.
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Post by farmerjan on Aug 5, 2019 20:15:33 GMT -6
We have a couple of neighbors that raise bulls for sale. Have a sale 2x a year. 15-25 bulls at a time. Purebred angus and the other is purebred limi's and some limflex. To me limflex is just a crossbred.... but that is me. Try to look at these bulls for muscling but they are fed way too much grain. Bought one several years ago, just couldn't keep his weight. Got one this past year, and he also faded away on grass. That's it for us. We will go to these sales, talk to fellow farmers, enjoy the comraderie.... and not buy any anymore. Have bought several over the years from a farm that had bull sales in partnership with another farm. 25 yrs selling bulls. Publicized the bulls as being grass genetics. These bulls have lasted a LOOOONNNGGG time in our herd. The ec bulls do put small calves on the ground, the heifers spit them out like popcorn. Bought in 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017,2018. All still here. Do their job, keep their condition, put good decent calves on the ground. 2 are easy calving bulls, 3 are plus weight. The plus weight bulls put good sized calves on the ground but not monsters. Haven't pulled a calf from them yet. Always a first time, but we are very satisfied with these bulls. Bought another at a sale that promotes their cattle as being "fescue" cattle. Will get the first calves on the ground this fall, a friend had a bull get hurt and he borrowed him first.... but the bull has stayed in fine shape all winter and spring, running with over 30 cow/calf pairs. We will know the preg rate in about a month but I have yet to see any heat activity from any of the cows in this group.
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Post by ebenezer on Aug 6, 2019 16:17:38 GMT -6
"Activity equals progress." "The high hanging fruit is better than the low apples." "New genetics are better."
These statements or mental drivers worry or ruin a lot of folks and their profits.
"Activity equals progress." It costs money to create activity. Driving to the store and back is activity. If you did not take something that would be profitable to transport or if you did not buy something and bring it home that will make you money it is wasted activity. Cattle magazines and much on CT that was so aggravating to me in recent months seem to dwell on actions for action sake. Call this site dull or whatever but I see more useful information and discussions posted occasionally and I do not have to sift through all of the useless mess. At the same time, I do not need to fall for every product, guru, gimmick, extra, product, or widget that is offered for sale to make something better. It is often the older person who does less, enjoys it more and benefits the most because they have seen enough useless movement in their lifetime. Balance is key but efforts can seem slow and yet be the best.
"The high hanging fruit is better than the low apples." So much of livestock breeding is based on the assumption that what somebody else has is better than what you or what someone near you has. Look at the hoopla over unproven bulls with the right herd prefix. Look at how a sales catalog from afar is more tantalizing than a ride in your own herd or at a neighbors place. Note that a pictured animal in a hard copy sales catalog is generally a boost to the final price of that animal. How in the world did folks a generation ago breed livestock without always needing a new input? Sure, some bulls and cows moved around but it was not an absolute necessity but was seen as an opportunity. We need to do a good job of starting an endeavor and then have experience or confidence to follow through with what we have.
"New genetics are better." New genetics is a misnomer. The genetics of 50 years ago are still around but have been sorted, suppressed, knocked out by mutations, selections, genetic noise at generational transfers, ... So they are both old and new but not totally either. The kicker is if all current genetics are pure or polluted? We can sort back towards the original but it takes more time and effort. There are lines, strains, herds, individuals and ways to sort or sift them for type or function but all in all the selection process does not obliterate genetics but merely lets you concentrate the ones you prefer. The new might be old or the new might be trash. Why do we keep falling for that line?
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Post by randy on Aug 6, 2019 18:29:21 GMT -6
I have seen some nice heifer sell pretty high only to see her sell a few years later for alot less. Any one that doesn't think the big boys don't play games is naive. Buying into a bull just because he sold for a lot of money has been a tool used to sell registered cattle for years.
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