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Post by highgrit on Jul 12, 2019 6:01:12 GMT -6
I have a couple of Graham influenced heifers I bought from Hill-Vue Farms years ago that I'm very happy with. As a matter of fact I'm thinking about keeping a bull from one this year to use in our herd. The only negative I found is some of the teats get big after a few calves. Nice looking bull that will work in most commercial operations. As Graham wound down they brought in outside bulls and finally outside heifers in a rush for marketing or carcass or something. They messed up in my opinion but it was not my herd or my money. There were already cattle in the herd that tended that way on teats prior but the reshuffle of genes left some long term buyers unable to feel comfortable on the selection against the udder issues. I saw a group of Graham cows bought fairly blindly for type and solely on high EPDs. They were the ones that money had to be there to buy. Of the 14 or so, one had a great udder. I would have culled the 13. That program was interesting in all of the ebbs and flows, evolution, dropping of lines and building of lines it had over the years. It is cheaper to learn from others and history. But good udders are worth the effort to avoid the bad ones. What amazes me the most about the Graham herd: nobody made an effort to preserve much of it or to fully copy cat the breeding. There was Angus politics that influenced some of that but overall the cattle held demand most years but just never had whatever it takes for folks to want to breed them as they were. And to be perfectly honest, they were not fescue based cattle and in our area some struggled and fell out. It is just the way it is or was. I am sampling a straight Graham bred bull this time on some heifers. He did well but in the same region, soils and forages as Graham. We'll see. I had a older man that I met at the Hill - Vue sale pick out what he thought was the best heifers on paper and I walked around and picked the one's that looked the best to me. He said he was from SC and about 1 1/2 hours away from the sale. I wish I had caught his name he was very familiar with the Graham cattle. I went to settle up on the heifers and a Hereford bull that I bought and he was gone when I got back. |
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Post by ebenezer on Jul 12, 2019 16:18:28 GMT -6
I know him. He is a real Graham fan.
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Post by ebenezer on Jul 12, 2019 16:30:32 GMT -6
This comment is sort of a mix of Bonsma and Graham. Graham had the Big Elban line. If you look in the Angus Legends or somewhere else there is a picture of the Big Elban bull which I think Graham bought and used. He has the build, rib angles and such of a Bonsma type selection. I'd go back and use him in minute.
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Post by the illustrious potentate on Jul 13, 2019 1:24:18 GMT -6
 This the one? |
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Post by highgrit on Jul 13, 2019 5:22:45 GMT -6
That's what kind of bull the commercial cattleman needs. I wonder what his ribeye and marble numbers look like? He's a hard sell over those big fat azz sloppy bulls that everyone thinks they need.
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Post by ebenezer on Jul 13, 2019 7:03:44 GMT -6
3386394
The Brewsters bull is a GGson of Big Elban of Moore. I'll see if I can scan the Big Elban of Moore bull picture. Funny how we ooh and aah over weights and these bulls had it in the 60's and 70's. The rib pattern is not obvious in the Brewsters bull. But he looks good and could help out the breed today.
I'm full of opinions and other "stuff". The attraction of the names in the lines lead to disenchantment with some of those old lines like Big Elban, Emulous, ... Folks would buy a son or a grandson of, say a Big Elban bull, outcross him on other lines and still name them "Big Elban whatever". The outcross cattle were not the same and folks learned to dislike names rather than the sources. Same as some folks now acting like SAV adds $40/straw bonus value to every straw of semen over other good or comparable bulls.
Got the check on the cull bull. Right at a ton and brought over $1800. Sorry old fescue bull raised on grass! I think somebody must have taken him back to the farm as the buyer notation was not a standard slaughter buyer. I told them to pound him due to the off/on nerve issue in his leg but it came and went so maybe somebody saw him walking good or was willing to take a gamble.
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Post by ebenezer on Jul 13, 2019 13:15:04 GMT -6
 This is the bull I was referring to. He has the rib angles like Bonsma likes with a backwards sweep. A bull like this or Emulous 7000 could do a lot of good for the Angus breed today. There were some discussions on the hatchet shape of Angus and Hereford bulls as in the wedge was wider at the front and some bulls were discussed as having no rear thickness. Emulous Bob of K Pride was measured by a couple of guys to see how he met Bonsma type. EBKP was 5.5" wider at the shoulders than at the hips. This bull might be too wedge shaped for some folks. |
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Post by highgrit on Jul 13, 2019 13:21:52 GMT -6
This is the bull I was referring to. He has the rib angles like Bonsma likes with a backwards sweep. A bull like this or Emulous 7000 could do a lot of good for the Angus breed today. There were some discussions on the hatchet shape of Angus and Hereford bulls as in the wedge was wider at the front and some bulls were discussed as having no rear thickness. Emulous Bob of K Pride was measured by a couple of guys to see how he met Bonsma type. EBKP was 5.5" wider at the shoulders than at the hips. This bull might be too wedge shaped for some folks. What kind of calving problems could you expect using a broad shouldered bull like that? |
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Post by ebenezer on Jul 13, 2019 17:19:28 GMT -6
I expect calving problems from genetics with high birthweights, poor calf shapes, overfat cows and cows without a sloping rump. I do not believe that shoulder width in a bull is linked to birth problems but poor shoulder structure is. I think the picture angle is poor and from trying my pictures from time to time I can make an average bull look like a cull most times.
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Post by the illustrious potentate on Jul 13, 2019 18:29:31 GMT -6
I agree. Seems to me that you can have a bull that's good and wide in the front but what I call smooth in the shoulders and never have an issue calving.
Nicest bull we owned or might ever own would stamp his calves with a lot of width and good muscle. He was real broad through the chest but never had any trouble from his or his sons that we or neighbors used.
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Post by ebenezer on Jul 14, 2019 5:48:38 GMT -6
I agree. Seems to me that you can have a bull that's good and wide in the front but what I call smooth in the shoulders and never have an issue calving. Nicest bull we owned or might ever own would stamp his calves with a lot of width and good muscle. He was real broad through the chest but never had any trouble from his or his sons that we or neighbors used. When a child is born in the hospital, nobody looks through the glass and says "he looks like he'll be a linebacker" or "she will make a fine short order cook". The adult features of mature individuals is based on hormones at and after puberty. The growth and size is both genetic, environmental and individual. But you can look in a maternity ward and see a great big baby and feel sorry for the mama!  Big birth weights is something to avoid in animal breeding if you know the females will have problems but it is not an excuse to go to the other end and breed every thing to be low BW. The wedge shapes of bulls (widest at the shoulders) with good male expression due to proper hormones and the wedge shape of cows (widest at the hips) with good female expression due to proper hormones is not so obvious at birth but should be desired in adults as a correct phenotype. Opinion: In the USA, the typical bull and cow is judged based on how much they resemble a feedlot steer. That has wrecked the breeds more than other fads because it has lessened the proper hormone levels in both sexes to be able to have semi-bullish cows and semi-cowish bulls. |
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Big birth weights is something to avoid in animal breeding if you know the females will have problems but it is not an excuse to go to the other end and breed every thing to be low BW.