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Post by brightraven on Jan 25, 2020 9:32:44 GMT -6
I would also add that no breed has transformed itself more than the Angus breed, and they didn't open their herd book to do it. There are bones buried in every woodpile! Lol Here is what is still remarkable. Despite the deliberate effort to introduce outside genes into Simmental to mitigate undesirable traits, they are still genetically 99.5 percent the same as their old world progenitors. Someone on CT mentioned a publication that did genome testing. All breeds are fundamentally the same. But both Angus and Simmental are relatively of pure ancestory. Regarding milk. That is a tough nut to crack. I don't want udders like a holstein but I do want them to feed their calf. PS: Silver, Fullbloods are not popular down here. It might be the bad taste left in their mouth from poor management back in the 60s and 70s. |
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Post by brightraven on Jan 25, 2020 9:48:39 GMT -6
I just can’t turn a blind eye to the horrible milk numbers on a lot of these Simmental bulls. I feel my Simmentals milk EPD’s are pretty accurate. The ones with a milk EPD less than 20 barely have enough milk. It’s just hard for me to breed to a bull with a milk EPD that low. Then when I keep a heifer and she doesn’t milk I would be upset with myself. Milk EPDs are tricky. Plus, nutrition is a function of both concentrations and volume. |
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Post by flyingl on Jan 25, 2020 12:33:39 GMT -6
I'm with kentuckyguy I like keeping a milk epd of 20 and slightly above. We have a female from clover valley simmentals whom is nursing her 2nd calf and isn't milking worth a darn. She looks good and has a great disposition but the milk is not there. Thought her milk seemed limited the first time but her Cowboy Cut calf did pretty nice for a 1st calf heifer. This 2nd calf from the herd sire is not gonna be much. Her milk epd currently is a 17.9. We do have a few who milk too much but just as many whom don't milk good enough. Figured out that the 20 - 24 milk epd works the best here. Just so hard to know what there true accurate milk epd are when they're young.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 17:39:29 GMT -6
PS: Silver, Fullbloods are not popular down here. It might be the bad taste left in their mouth from poor management back in the 60s and 70s. They well may not be popular, but I don't think that is the reason. |
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Post by brightraven on Jan 25, 2020 17:56:00 GMT -6
PS: Silver, Fullbloods are not popular down here. It might be the bad taste left in their mouth from poor management back in the 60s and 70s. They well may not be popular, but I don't think that is the reason. There are many reasons. In this area, the traditional color is going to be discounted on feeder calves. Selling seedstock Fullbrood Simmental in the traditional colors in Kentucky is a niche market. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 18:07:34 GMT -6
They well may not be popular, but I don't think that is the reason. There are many reasons. In this area, the traditional color is going to be discounted on feeder calves. Selling seedstock Fullbrood Simmental in the traditional colors in Kentucky is a niche market. I can see that by looking around on the web. That may change and it may not. It makes me feel fortunate to operate where cattle are valued mostly on their merit rather than colour. At least for the moment.  |
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Post by brightraven on Jan 25, 2020 18:13:47 GMT -6
There are many reasons. In this area, the traditional color is going to be discounted on feeder calves. Selling seedstock Fullbrood Simmental in the traditional colors in Kentucky is a niche market. I can see that by looking around on the web. That may change and it may not. It makes me feel fortunate to operate where cattle are valued mostly on their merit rather than colour. At least for the moment. I give credit where credit is due.....the AAA has promoted the Angus breed as they should after all, they serve their members. The ASA was astute in seeing the writing on the wall and thus the Modern American Simmental breeder has selected for a Black Pelage. It is a business and business is about money. |
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Post by kentuckyguy on Jan 25, 2020 18:19:52 GMT -6
There are many reasons. In this area, the traditional color is going to be discounted on feeder calves. Selling seedstock Fullbrood Simmental in the traditional colors in Kentucky is a niche market. I can see that by looking around on the web. That may change and it may not. It makes me feel fortunate to operate where cattle are valued mostly on their merit rather than colour. At least for the moment. I hope it does end up changing. If it does I’m going red. There is no comparison to how they handle the heat here. |
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Post by brightraven on Jan 25, 2020 18:24:54 GMT -6
I can see that by looking around on the web. That may change and it may not. It makes me feel fortunate to operate where cattle are valued mostly on their merit rather than colour. At least for the moment. I hope it does end up changing. If it does I’m going red. There is no comparison to how they handle the heat here. I understand. But there is a tremendous headwind in changing that preference for black pelage. I doubt I would change even if things were equal. My cows do fine in the heat. you have been here. I got deep hollers with shade trees. There is still a lot that separates the Angus and Simmental breeds. I still see more bone, muscle, depth and butt in Simmentals. Although there are exceptions. BTW. I like your avatar picture |
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Post by highgrit on Jan 25, 2020 20:01:55 GMT -6
Been hearing the same crap for years and the Angus breed and CAB is just getting stronger every year. I'm not convinced that hide color has much to do with heat tolerance or cold tolerance. Red cattle in the cold seem to do just as well as black cattle in the heat. I have mostly black cattle but have whites, smokies, reds, tigers and baldies and when it's hot, it's hot on them all. Black cows have more flies than all the other colors and Brahman influenced cows have the least.
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Post by holm256 on Jan 25, 2020 22:05:34 GMT -6
I will be at the Bred for Balance sale in February. Will have to take some pictures of the eagle calves they have on the sale.
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Post by brightraven on Jan 26, 2020 5:56:27 GMT -6
I will be at the Bred for Balance sale in February. Will have to take some pictures of the eagle calves they have on the sale. Please do. I only bought 5 straws of Eagle. I got 2 calves both bulls on the ground this past fall. I used the other three straws in December. I like the 2 calves I got. I may use him again next year. |
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Post by brightraven on Jan 27, 2020 6:00:20 GMT -6
Your herd is hardly mongrels. The ASA herd book is open. You can register an Angus cow with only 1/8 Simmental in her pedigree. Simangus cattle occupy a considerable part of the registry in the herd book as well as Simbrah. If you ponder it, the primary function of a Breed Association is to maintain a Herd Book (Keeper of Record) so a buyer of registered stock can view the pedigree. The ASA was formed with a goal of providing ultimate flexibility. If you want Puebreds or Fullbroods, the crosses like Simangus and Simbrah doesn't hamper that. But it does add a place to record pedigrees for popular crosses. I don't think that is bad. My bulls are mostly PB and most go to producers who put them on Angus cows. Kentucky is predominantly an Angus region. Thus, to get heterosis, most of my buyers want a Purebred. But there is also a strong secondary market for Simangus bulls. I think I still have an evolving opinion on this. I always thought a breed association was there to preserve the purity of the breed so hacks like myself could go to the cupboard and get pure or almost pure ingredients to mix up as we see fit to make the best beef animals. So it seems counter-intuitive that the breed associations appear to be mixing the ingredients up before we can get our hands on it. I've always stated that I am a fan of the cross bred beef animal, but I would prefer to use pure ingredients of my choosing. I do realize that the registry still allows us to find those pure or full blood animals but the ASA appears to still be the wild west. I wonder if there isn't a danger to the breed to try to be too flexible trying to be all things to all producers. Maybe the Association would be better served to raise it's requirements for Purebred registration now that they should have enough outside influence within the registry to have a broad enough appeal to the cattle producing masses. I don't know. Maybe I'm just too old fashioned for this modern breeding philosophy. I'm sure my opinions on the matter will continue to change, it's just how it appears to me at this point in time. Silver I reviewed the ASA mission statements and objectives. They admit that they are not a traditional "Breed Club". What has come to be know as "SimGenetics" is a centerpiece of the Association. It consists of four components. 1. Simmental 2. Fullbrood 3. Simangus 4. Simbrah The objective is to encompass a broader range of SimGenetics which include the most popular crosses. The "percentage" registry allows other crosses to have a place where pedigree, performance data, progeny and EPDs can be put into the record. |
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Post by brightraven on Jan 27, 2020 6:09:56 GMT -6
From the ASA Library. Defines SimGenetics:
The world demand for quality beef is high, and the American Simmental Association (ASA) is committed to providing consumers with safe, affordable, and tasty beef. SimGenetics refers to the varied populations of Simmental-influenced cattle including purebred Simmental, Fullblood Simmental, SimAngusTM, SimAngusHT, Simbrah, and any other Simmental hybrids. Follow the links in this section to delve deeper into the characteristics of each population. The following text highlights the SimGenetic advantage this group has gained collectively.
Through the years, American Simmental cattle have gained a reputation as the science breed. From the foundation of the Association, emphasis on performance data, progeny testing, and genetic evaluation has been the core of ASA’s existence. ASA's Carcass Merit Program, feed conversion data, and calving ease research established Simmental as a beef industry leader combining growth and carcass value with outstanding cow traits. ASA's research is backed by the most extensively documented genetics and largest multi-breed database in the industry.
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Post by jeanne on Jan 27, 2020 6:10:07 GMT -6
Quote: I would also add that no breed has transformed itself more than the Angus breed, and they didn't open their herd book to do it.
LOL I had to laugh at that one. Not bashing any breed, but Angus didn't get their height overnight by breeding Angus to Angus back in the 70's - 80's. Every breed has had some "mystery" genes in their pedigree. We had an Angus rep at our NYSF and he pulled every animal in the show sired by "XX" bull, because he had Holstein in his DNA profile.
The Simmental breed is upfront with any crossbreeding. Like BR said, you can look at the pedigree of your bulls and determine how "pure" his lineage is.
A 3/4 blood bull bred to a 7/8 cow gives you a Purebred offspring by our ASA breed rules.
Used to be a bull had to be 15/16 to be considered PB. I liked that, but I go with the flow.
Recent years, I have used a few 3/4 bulls. Executive Order is one. Most of my cows are way more than the 7/8 - going back 30+ years in most of my cow families. I shipped a cow last year that was the last of my cow family going back to 1972 - my first set of 1/2 bloods.
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