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Post by highgrit on Feb 4, 2020 7:12:53 GMT -6
Brightraven got me thinking about BW issues when he posted a picture of that beautiful Pasque Simmental bull. My thinking is a bull with know BW issues needs to be used in a well managed commercial herd of cows that are calved under a close eye. It would take a lot of calves to pay for a lost calf or worst case both. Why would a seedstock operation use an AI bull like that? The only real market I see is to the previous type of operation that I already mentioned. We know BW issues can be passed on by both the cow and bull, so what appeal would the offspring have to another seedstock producer? We manage under the KISS and don't need any extra hassles to worry about. I'm curious to hear Ron's thinking and others about the extra benefits of using this Pasque bull?
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Post by ebenezer on Feb 4, 2020 7:51:55 GMT -6
Birth weight does not bother me. Calf shape gets my attention. Just like folks who go to Longhorns bulls to calve heifers the actions of breeders are indicators of the problems they think they have in their cowherd. This is more so in registered cattle operations. But there is a correlation between BW and growth rate. Some have mentioned that the Angus are now bigger, on average, that SM and %SM. I'd guess a bull like this one would be attractive to SM breeders to get more growth in their herds or to offer real "cow bulls" to customers.
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Post by brightraven on Feb 4, 2020 7:52:35 GMT -6
Because some commercial producers want that BW. That is the direct answer. But thanks for raising this issue. It is a good one. If you remember that Broadway Bull calf I had in the 2017 fall calf crop. That was the group Gimli was in (Fence named him). That calf was 110 pounds at birth. Here are Broadway's current numbers. My thought was that I would sell the Broadway Bull as a feeder. It so happened that a large (wealthy) commercial producer near here was looking specifically for a Broadway. That is an exception. Because I stopped using Broadway due to the BW. If you remember I had a 2018 Bull Calf that went 125 at birth. I castrated him. His name was Giganta. In general, there are producers who don't want dinks. They have cows that can handle 90 pound calves. Those bigger calves are usually thrifty and turn off more pounds.
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Post by brightraven on Feb 4, 2020 8:14:46 GMT -6
To some of your other issues:
I have never sold a bull or heifer to another seedstock producer with one exception. I sold an Elevate sired PB heifer (Princess) out of my Uno Mas cow Reina to Fire Sweep. Reina is a rock star. Everyone has loved her. Her son showed Princess all the way to Nationals in 2018.
My market is commercial producers. Commercial producers want terminal qualities - performance, i.e., growth. There seems to be more commercial producers who want performance versus CE than many recognize.
Pasque looks like a terminal bull to me at this point. Kycowpollinator knows more about that specific bull.
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Post by highgrit on Feb 4, 2020 8:36:52 GMT -6
To some of your other issues: I have never sold a bull or heifer to another seedstock producer with one exception. I sold an Elevate sired PB heifer (Princess) out of my Uno Mas cow Reina to Fire Sweep. Reina is a rock star. Everyone has loved her. Her son showed Princess all the way to Nationals in 2018. My market is commercial producers. Commercial producers want terminal qualities - performance, i.e., growth. There seems to be more commercial producers who want performance versus CE than many recognize. Pasque looks like a terminal bull to me at this point. Kycowpollinator knows more about that specific bull. You know my opinion that Uno Mas is the best proven all around AI Simmental bull why not use him instead of using wishful thinking? There's still a good market for his heifer and bull calves. Preformance is great but calving problems aren't. I'm not qualified to preform an emergency C section like some on here are.
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Post by brightraven on Feb 4, 2020 8:42:12 GMT -6
To some of your other issues: I have never sold a bull or heifer to another seedstock producer with one exception. I sold an Elevate sired PB heifer (Princess) out of my Uno Mas cow Reina to Fire Sweep. Reina is a rock star. Everyone has loved her. Her son showed Princess all the way to Nationals in 2018. My market is commercial producers. Commercial producers want terminal qualities - performance, i.e., growth. There seems to be more commercial producers who want performance versus CE than many recognize. Pasque looks like a terminal bull to me at this point. Kycowpollinator knows more about that specific bull. You know my opinion that Uno Mas is the best proven all around AI Simmental bull why not use him instead of using wishful thinking? There's still a good market for his heifer and bull calves. Preformance is great but calving problems aren't. I'm not qualified to preform an emergency C section like some on here are. You are reading my mind. I am going to get another cane of Uno Mas. I had good luck with him except for one draw back - disposition. Some of his off spring are hardheaded. In fact, Princess was one I had a hard time with. Fire Sweep used a wire training halter to get her broken. I had a heifer I named "Adorable" and she was except for disposition. I sold her at a discount to a guy who understood what he was getting.
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Post by highgrit on Feb 4, 2020 8:50:55 GMT -6
Birth weight does not bother me. Calf shape gets my attention. Just like folks who go to Longhorns bulls to calve heifers the actions of breeders are indicators of the problems they think they have in their cowherd. This is more so in registered cattle operations. But there is a correlation between BW and growth rate. Some have mentioned that the Angus are now bigger, on average, that SM and %SM. I'd guess a bull like this one would be attractive to SM breeders to get more growth in their herds or to offer real "cow bulls" to customers. BW is a concern for us, we're calving right now and the cows are bringing new calves out of the woods every day. We have the hay and water where my wife can sort of monitor what's happening. Ebenezer are you saying that I should start looking at Simmental bulls for easy calving instead of Angus?
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Post by highgrit on Feb 4, 2020 9:07:30 GMT -6
You know my opinion that Uno Mas is the best proven all around AI Simmental bull why not use him instead of using wishful thinking? There's still a good market for his heifer and bull calves. Preformance is great but calving problems aren't. I'm not qualified to preform an emergency C section like some on here are. You are reading my mind. I am going to get another cane of Uno Mas. I had good luck with him except for one draw back - disposition. Some of his off spring are hardheaded. In fact, Princess was one I had a hard time with. Fire Sweep used a wire training halter to get her broken. I had a heifer I named "Adorable" and she was except for disposition. I sold her at a discount to a guy who understood what he was getting. Uno Mas X Angus heifer calves sell really good here at the commercial sales. I need to breed some cows to him this year, but trying to find someone to AI is almost impossible. My wife or son need to learn how to AI and neither one wants to stick there arm in a cow for some reason. My left arm and shoulder is shot out till I decide to get surgery again.
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Post by brightraven on Feb 4, 2020 9:10:51 GMT -6
You are reading my mind. I am going to get another cane of Uno Mas. I had good luck with him except for one draw back - disposition. Some of his off spring are hardheaded. In fact, Princess was one I had a hard time with. Fire Sweep used a wire training halter to get her broken. I had a heifer I named "Adorable" and she was except for disposition. I sold her at a discount to a guy who understood what he was getting. Uno Mas X Angus heifer calves sell really good here at the commercial sales. I need to breed some cows to him this year, but trying to find someone to AI is almost impossible. My wife or son need to learn how to AI and neither one wants to stick there arm in a cow for some reason. My left arm and shoulder is shot out till I decide to get surgery again. The dislike of sticking your arm into the rectum of a cow is common. The instructor of our AI class said some folks just never get over the aversion to that part of the process.
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Post by Nesikep on Feb 4, 2020 12:00:31 GMT -6
There's always a market for everything... Where's Brookhill? It seems he does alright with 2000 lb cows, Those cows should all be able to handle 120 lb birthweights without a second thought... It really is wasteful to have ridiculously low birthweights when not necessary. My big cows have big BW calves, and every one of those whoppers at birth is considerably heavier at weaning, and usually thicker and meatier. Of course it's not a good idea to go overboard with it, like anything.
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Post by ebenezer on Feb 4, 2020 12:29:03 GMT -6
Birth weight does not bother me. Calf shape gets my attention. Just like folks who go to Longhorns bulls to calve heifers the actions of breeders are indicators of the problems they think they have in their cowherd. This is more so in registered cattle operations. But there is a correlation between BW and growth rate. Some have mentioned that the Angus are now bigger, on average, that SM and %SM. I'd guess a bull like this one would be attractive to SM breeders to get more growth in their herds or to offer real "cow bulls" to customers. BW is a concern for us, we're calving right now and the cows are bringing new calves out of the woods every day. We have the hay and water where my wife can sort of monitor what's happening. Ebenezer are you saying that I should start looking at Simmental bulls for easy calving instead of Angus? Nothing like that. All breeds have variation enough.
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Post by franklinridgefarms on Feb 4, 2020 13:05:17 GMT -6
Good topic and sure there are lots of varying ideas about it. For us we are now commercial with only a small number of registered animals to supply us with bulls. Ours are calving now and though we don’t have vast amounts of acres the hills and mud prevent access to some areas at times. I would much rather have a live calf without complications so that it gets up quick and does what it’s supposed to. The cow as well needs to be able to breed back in a timely fashion. Difficult births can hamper both of those scenarios. I don’t select for extreme CE and low BW, but would also not consider large BW with low CE bulls. We use low BW bulls for heifers and the same or moderate for the cows.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 13:14:58 GMT -6
I don't understand this whole birth weight thing but I have a bunch of 6 month old calves right now. My smallest BW heifer calf is now my biggest 6 month old calf, both by weight and all over size. She also has the smallest dam. All have the same sire. I don't sell my cows by weight so it doesn't bother me at all.
Most of my cows right now are half Holstein and they seem to spit out massive calves for me.
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Post by brightraven on Feb 4, 2020 13:25:46 GMT -6
I don't understand this whole birth weight thing but I have a bunch of 6 month old calves right now. My smallest BW heifer calf is now my biggest 6 month old calf, both by weight and all over size. She also has the smallest dam. All have the same sire. I don't sell my cows by weight so it doesn't bother me at all. Most of my cows right now are half Holstein and they seem to spit out massive calves for me. Do you weigh your calves?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 14:17:53 GMT -6
I don't understand this whole birth weight thing but I have a bunch of 6 month old calves right now. My smallest BW heifer calf is now my biggest 6 month old calf, both by weight and all over size. She also has the smallest dam. All have the same sire. I don't sell my cows by weight so it doesn't bother me at all. Most of my cows right now are half Holstein and they seem to spit out massive calves for me. Do you weigh your calves? I did this year out of sheer curiosity. The only times I ever weighed one born on the farm in the past was when I had a really small one or a really big one. I just went 5 years buying orphans that came with a weight stamped on their tag. My biggest calves from those purchased newborns are not my biggest cows. My biggest cow was 70lbs at birth. I have one that came marked with 110lbs on her tag. She's not my biggest cow but now my second biggest. I fed them all exactly the same.
The calf that I got out of that 110lbs calf now gave me an 85lb calf. I feel like all my calves are pretty large from these girls I have now.
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