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Post by okie on Jul 12, 2019 19:59:23 GMT -6
Epigenetics play a role as well. It's been studied mostly on the female side of things and that is certainly where you get the most economic impact but it does effect the bulls if in no other capacity than their individual need for feed.
Quick explination for those who may not have heard the term: Rancher A uses the exact same genetics as rancher B. Rancher A suppliments feed, creeps, puts out mineral, best hay, fertilizer etc. Rancher B puts out hay in the winter...period... Rancher A's calves are hard wired to need the extra care while rancher B's calves are hard wired to get by with less.
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Post by okie on Jul 12, 2019 20:20:04 GMT -6
The key to raising your own bulls is to trust your genetics and then save money raising them. As said above most of them are more profitable as steers. It's no different than retaining heifers, in most cases you're turning steak prices into hamburger prices but you have to do some of that to stay in business. I like to keep the ones that still look like bulls without getting a bunch of extra help to make them look like that. It takes a bunch of feed to polish a turd but people like to buy polished turds and will sped a bunch of money doing it. I've turned quite a few home made bulls out that I wouldn't share a picture of for fear of the turd polishers reactions but I knew exactly what they were supposed to do and more often than not they've done it even if they didn't look to great sometimes.
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Post by okie on Jul 12, 2019 20:24:40 GMT -6
Another consideration, check your tax laws. If capital gains is an issue you'd be better off buying both bulls and heifers than raising them. One of the reasons I was kinda okay with selling out was a proposed law change that made keeping home raised stock look like a bad idea.
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Post by the illustrious potentate on Jul 12, 2019 20:29:02 GMT -6
I like the term "Maternal Programming".
That's what got us started in keeping some home raised bulls out of the proven cows.
Have had some decent results.
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Post by jehosofat on Jul 12, 2019 21:07:34 GMT -6
Another consideration, check your tax laws. If capital gains is an issue you'd be better off buying both bulls and heifers than raising them. One of the reasons I was kinda okay with selling out was a proposed law change that made keeping home raised stock look like a bad idea. If you look.at.your herd that way, you care way more about short term goals than raising long term good cattle. |
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Post by elkwc on Jul 12, 2019 21:39:12 GMT -6
I don't see any reason not to either. I have over the years kept sons of AI bulls that we raised as well as ones from walking herd bulls. In most all cases I think they were as good as about any bull that we have bought on average. One thing that I like about that is that if they don't work out you aren't out near as much money as if you had bought it. I am not even opposed to using a crossbred bull, depending on the breeding of the cows. It may not work out great, but I currently have a 3/4 Angus, 1/4 Hereford bull calf that I have left a bull. May use him on some straight bred Hereford cows. I don't see it like that and that's what has given me doubts. My thinking is that I won't know much till after his first calf crop grows out? So that means if he's a dud I'll have two calf crops that I'm not happy with. Two years wasted experimenting and trying to re - invent the wheel is one heck of a risk IMO. We have kept 3 bulls we raised over the last 3 years. The first was out of a bred registered cow I purchased. The last 2 are full brothers. They are sired by the best Angus heifer bull we have used. According to EPD's their sire never should of been a heifer bull. His actual BW was 85 lbs. We never pulled a calf on a heifer in 3 years. We got the first calves by the oldest brother and never pulled a calf this spring. We have had wasted calf crops from the high dollar AI sires. So I feel there is no more risk if as much as buying a bull. We know the dam well. Her mother raised a calf every year till she was 14. I know several breeders who have started retaining home raised bulls. There are several reasons. The main one for us is we can raise better bulls that we have a good idea how they will perform than we can buy. I did buy a 7 month okd ET Hereford calf in May tgat I'm developing. I got his 4 y/o recip mother with him. Until longtivity and structural soundness are addressed we will likely continue to retain bulls. |
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Post by ebenezer on Jul 13, 2019 7:12:38 GMT -6
If you raise your own bulls because you like the older cows you have you need to breed those cows to bulls as much like them in type and performance to create the bulls of your planning efforts. To take a good old cow that checks all the the boxes and breed her to a high growth or low growth or high milk or low milk bull to change the hopeful bull calves is a waste of time. I think terminal bulls are best to be bought or in a straw. The trick is finding the bull(s) that will let you make decent replacement females without a high rate of culling. That is one advantage of linebreeding, if it works for that cow, line or herd.
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Post by tillhill on Jul 13, 2019 7:39:04 GMT -6
For the guys that are raising their own bulls tell me more. Are we talking guy that runs 20 cows or 500? Are you collecting BW, WW, YW? Any genetic testing for defects? Are you AI'ing any? Are you buying some really elite sires to create these calves your keeping back?
I will just give you my small example of what genetics can do at my place. 2017 replacement heifers 1/19 retained were sired by clean up bull. 581# adj WW, 2018 only kept 10 heifers and was even split half AI sired half sired by our walking bull (Who is full brother to Hook's Broadway @ Select Sires)
are calves we 14# lighter. Now we only run 40 cows but -14# on 40 head is 560# x $1.50=a loss of $840. And my clean up bull is a full brother to an AI bull. I can't afford to loose that money in our operation.
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Post by franklinridgefarms on Jul 13, 2019 8:29:25 GMT -6
For the guys that are raising their own bulls tell me more. Are we talking guy that runs 20 cows or 500? Are you collecting BW, WW, YW? Any genetic testing for defects? Are you AI'ing any? Are you buying some really elite sires to create these calves your keeping back? I will just give you my small example of what genetics can do at my place. 2017 replacement heifers 1/19 retained were sired by clean up bull. 581# adj WW, 2018 only kept 10 heifers and was even split half AI sired half sired by our walking bull (Who is full brother to Hook's Broadway @ Select Sires) are calves we 14# lighter. Now we only run 40 cows but -14# on 40 head is 560# x $1.50=a loss of $840. And my clean up bull is a full brother to an AI bull. I can't afford to loose that money in our operation. Am I understanding correctly that the herd bulls calves that were 14lbs lighter, were born from a clean up situation after AI? Would the slightly later calving time of the clean up calves account for the lighter weaning weight , if they were weaned at the same time? I commend your efforts of record keeping and weights, we did for while and then haven't for a while, my wife is starting to do that now as well. We are mostly a commercial outfit, we typically have 50-60 females to breed per year, most years several of those are sold as bred heifers. We have done AI, but not for 3 years now. One of our bulls is a product of our last AI project, PA Power Tool x HA Image Maker, his dam was AI sired as well for several generations. Our purchased bull is a Boyd Ft. Knox x NWJ Embassy The commercial bull is probably around 3/4 Hereford, 1/4 Brahman. The commercial bull is one that we just kept as an insurance policy if something happened to the others, but we did turn him out with the FT. Knox bull because it seemed like the heat was bothering him some. This year the bull calves I have left intact, are from a purchased purebred Hereford cow, that will be an outcross, and the other is out of our Power Tool Angus bull. There is something that I feel each bull could contribute or else I would not use them. I will say that to me there is no more guarantee that a purchased bull is going to turn out any better than our own. I have purchased several bulls over the years, from multiple sources and breeds and the results have not shown me any superior results. I will say that the calves from our Power Tool bull, are impressing me thus far, better than many of the calves from purchased bulls in the past. The calves from a home raised Hereford bull the past three years, have been consistently some our best. Again if you have a source for bulls that do well for you then that's great and no need to change if its working. For me it wasn't working so I am trying something else, time will tell. |
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Post by tillhill on Jul 13, 2019 8:40:30 GMT -6
For the guys that are raising their own bulls tell me more. Are we talking guy that runs 20 cows or 500? Are you collecting BW, WW, YW? Any genetic testing for defects? Are you AI'ing any? Are you buying some really elite sires to create these calves your keeping back? I will just give you my small example of what genetics can do at my place. 2017 replacement heifers 1/19 retained were sired by clean up bull. 581# adj WW, 2018 only kept 10 heifers and was even split half AI sired half sired by our walking bull (Who is full brother to Hook's Broadway @ Select Sires) are calves we 14# lighter. Now we only run 40 cows but -14# on 40 head is 560# x $1.50=a loss of $840. And my clean up bull is a full brother to an AI bull. I can't afford to loose that money in our operation. Am I understanding correctly that the herd bulls calves that were 14lbs lighter, were born from a clean up situation after AI? Would the slightly later calving time of the clean up calves account for the lighter weaning weight , if they were weaned at the same time? I commend your efforts of record keeping and weights, we did for while and then haven't for a while, my wife is starting to do that now as well. We are mostly a commercial outfit, we typically have 50-60 females to breed per year, most years several of those are sold as bred heifers. We have done AI, but not for 3 years now. One of our bulls is a product of our last AI project, PA Power Tool x HA Image Maker, his dam was AI sired as well for several generations. Our purchased bull is a Boyd Ft. Knox x NWJ Embassy The commercial bull is probably around 3/4 Hereford, 1/4 Brahman. The commercial bull is one that we just kept as an insurance policy if something happened to the others, but we did turn him out with the FT. Knox bull because it seemed like the heat was bothering him some. This year the bull calves I have left intact, are from a purchased purebred Hereford cow, that will be an outcross, and the other is out of our Power Tool Angus bull. There is something that I feel each bull could contribute or else I would not use them. I will say that to me there is no more guarantee that a purchased bull is going to turn out any better than our own. I have purchased several bulls over the years, from multiple sources and breeds and the results have not shown me any superior results. I will say that the calves from our Power Tool bull, are impressing me thus far, better than many of the calves from purchased bulls in the past. The calves from a home raised Hereford bull the past three years, have been consistently some our best. Again if you have a source for bulls that do well for you then that's great and no need to change if its working. For me it wasn't working so I am trying something else, time will tell. Actually 2018 born calves from herd bull were same age as AI calves. Turned bull out say were started AI and worked out about exactly same average says old at weaning |
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Post by 11111 on Jul 13, 2019 8:57:14 GMT -6
Home raised bulls, you can raise, have them do their work... then sell them for weigh up if you don’t want to hold them over.
One guy runs a massive feedlot operation and just goes to a Seedstock operation, buys the BOTTOM end bulls for best dollar and then feeds them out when he’s finished. He bought 18 at this last bull sale I attended. He’s really out no money. For him, he just needs those girls bred and buys enough to cover them for one season.
We retained two of our own this year on the PB side. I think we may retain another. I really see no reason to buy from another Seedstock if I’m creating what I like. Aside from scratching backs and we’re not in that game.
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Post by franklinridgefarms on Jul 13, 2019 10:08:42 GMT -6
Am I understanding correctly that the herd bulls calves that were 14lbs lighter, were born from a clean up situation after AI? Would the slightly later calving time of the clean up calves account for the lighter weaning weight , if they were weaned at the same time? I commend your efforts of record keeping and weights, we did for while and then haven't for a while, my wife is starting to do that now as well. We are mostly a commercial outfit, we typically have 50-60 females to breed per year, most years several of those are sold as bred heifers. We have done AI, but not for 3 years now. One of our bulls is a product of our last AI project, PA Power Tool x HA Image Maker, his dam was AI sired as well for several generations. Our purchased bull is a Boyd Ft. Knox x NWJ Embassy The commercial bull is probably around 3/4 Hereford, 1/4 Brahman. The commercial bull is one that we just kept as an insurance policy if something happened to the others, but we did turn him out with the FT. Knox bull because it seemed like the heat was bothering him some. This year the bull calves I have left intact, are from a purchased purebred Hereford cow, that will be an outcross, and the other is out of our Power Tool Angus bull. There is something that I feel each bull could contribute or else I would not use them. I will say that to me there is no more guarantee that a purchased bull is going to turn out any better than our own. I have purchased several bulls over the years, from multiple sources and breeds and the results have not shown me any superior results. I will say that the calves from our Power Tool bull, are impressing me thus far, better than many of the calves from purchased bulls in the past. The calves from a home raised Hereford bull the past three years, have been consistently some our best. Again if you have a source for bulls that do well for you then that's great and no need to change if its working. For me it wasn't working so I am trying something else, time will tell. Actually 2018 born calves from herd bull were same age as AI calves. Turned bull out say were started AI and worked out about exactly same average says old at weaning Again I am not disputing or disagreeing with you, just see this discussion as interesting and relevant, since you have the weights and records. I am just adding possible variables and angles from which to draw a conclusion from the details. Your bull is a full brother to an AI sire, were any of the calve sired by the AI brother? Were the growth EPD's similar from your bull and that bull, as well as any other of your AI sires? Again I am figuring on the assumption that even though calving times were similar two weeks difference at 1 pound a day growth could account for the 14 pound difference. particularly if some did not stick to the AI that would make them 21 days behind. |
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Post by tillhill on Jul 13, 2019 13:35:49 GMT -6
Actually 2018 born calves from herd bull were same age as AI calves. Turned bull out say were started AI and worked out about exactly same average says old at weaning Again I am not disputing or disagreeing with you, just see this discussion as interesting and relevant, since you have the weights and records. I am just adding possible variables and angles from which to draw a conclusion from the details. Your bull is a full brother to an AI sire, were any of the calve sired by the AI brother? Were the growth EPD's similar from your bull and that bull, as well as any other of your AI sires? Again I am figuring on the assumption that even though calving times were similar two weeks difference at 1 pound a day growth could account for the 14 pound difference. particularly if some did not stick to the AI that would make them 21 days behind. Calves were 193 to 227 days old. Oldest 2 were ET calves and obviously the heaviest. EPD wise I would say clean up bull and AI's were really close too with first calvers being calving ease moderate growth and cows had some growthy bulls put on them. |
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Post by franklinridgefarms on Jul 13, 2019 14:31:00 GMT -6
Again I am not disputing or disagreeing with you, just see this discussion as interesting and relevant, since you have the weights and records. I am just adding possible variables and angles from which to draw a conclusion from the details. Your bull is a full brother to an AI sire, were any of the calve sired by the AI brother? Were the growth EPD's similar from your bull and that bull, as well as any other of your AI sires? Again I am figuring on the assumption that even though calving times were similar two weeks difference at 1 pound a day growth could account for the 14 pound difference. particularly if some did not stick to the AI that would make them 21 days behind. Calves were 193 to 227 days old. Oldest 2 were ET calves and obviously the heaviest. EPD wise I would say clean up bull and AI's were really close too with first calvers being calving ease moderate growth and cows had some growthy bulls put on them. Thanks for the response. That is a good calving window. |
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Post by randy on Jul 13, 2019 19:10:31 GMT -6
For the guys that are raising their own bulls tell me more. Are we talking guy that runs 20 cows or 500? Are you collecting BW, WW, YW? Any genetic testing for defects? Are you AI'ing any? Are you buying some really elite sires to create these calves your keeping back? I will just give you my small example of what genetics can do at my place. 2017 replacement heifers 1/19 retained were sired by clean up bull. 581# adj WW, 2018 only kept 10 heifers and was even split half AI sired half sired by our walking bull (Who is full brother to Hook's Broadway @ Select Sires) are calves we 14# lighter. Now we only run 40 cows but -14# on 40 head is 560# x $1.50=a loss of $840. And my clean up bull is a full brother to an AI bull. I can't afford to loose that money in our operation. What is a elite sire? |
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