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Post by tillhill on Jul 13, 2019 19:18:03 GMT -6
For the guys that are raising their own bulls tell me more. Are we talking guy that runs 20 cows or 500? Are you collecting BW, WW, YW? Any genetic testing for defects? Are you AI'ing any? Are you buying some really elite sires to create these calves your keeping back? I will just give you my small example of what genetics can do at my place. 2017 replacement heifers 1/19 retained were sired by clean up bull. 581# adj WW, 2018 only kept 10 heifers and was even split half AI sired half sired by our walking bull (Who is full brother to Hook's Broadway @ Select Sires) are calves we 14# lighter. Now we only run 40 cows but -14# on 40 head is 560# x $1.50=a loss of $840. And my clean up bull is a full brother to an AI bull. I can't afford to loose that money in our operation. What is a elite sire? Elite is the best of the best. |
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Post by 11111 on Jul 13, 2019 22:12:19 GMT -6
Tillhill, I’m having a hard time following your paragraph. You’re saying that have your calves were AI sired and the other half as clean up... and that the cleanup bull progeny weaned 14lbs lighter?
I wouldn’t honestly recommend retaining your own bull in a commercial setting unless he’s an aI over an aI over an aI... if that makes sense. Our commercial bulls that we’ve sold, have done our commercial cattlemen a lot of good. But our girls, even as commercial stock are pretty much damn near PB. We’ve AI’d our cattle for 20 years and only retain AId calves or bulls.
I can’t say I’d keep a homegrown bull that had just mates with a salebarn cow and I liked the looks of him. If that’s what you’re train of thought is.
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Post by tillhill on Jul 14, 2019 6:32:18 GMT -6
Tillhill, I’m having a hard time following your paragraph. You’re saying that have your calves were AI sired and the other half as clean up... and that the cleanup bull progeny weaned 14lbs lighter? I wouldn’t honestly recommend retaining your own bull in a commercial setting unless he’s an aI over an aI over an aI... if that makes sense. Our commercial bulls that we’ve sold, have done our commercial cattlemen a lot of good. But our girls, even as commercial stock are pretty much damn near PB. We’ve AI’d our cattle for 20 years and only retain AId calves or bulls. I can’t say I’d keep a homegrown bull that had just mates with a salebarn cow and I liked the looks of him. If that’s what you’re train of thought is. Yes clean up bulls calves were 14# lighter |
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Post by randy on Jul 14, 2019 7:00:16 GMT -6
Just who decides what bulls are the best? Some bulls do some things better than others bull i have never seen a bull that does all thing the best. Big growth bulls never seem to make easy keeping cows. Cow maker bulls will never match the big growth bulls. The right bull all depends on what you trying to do and where your trying to do it.
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Post by tillhill on Jul 14, 2019 7:44:37 GMT -6
Just who decides what bulls are the best? Some bulls do some things better than others bull i have never seen a bull that does all thing the best. Big growth bulls never seem to make easy keeping cows. Cow maker bulls will never match the big growth bulls. The right bull all depends on what you trying to do and where your trying to do it. Who decides who is the best one, well the one that is writing the check. Your right there are bulls that are terminal, maternal, etc. I sell steers off the cow and retain all heifers. I need WW and cow power. YW and carcass quality traits are of very little use to me |
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Post by randy on Jul 14, 2019 12:42:59 GMT -6
Hi weaning weight and yearling weights seem come with frame creep. More you for bigger better faster the bigger the cows get.
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Post by tillhill on Jul 14, 2019 13:07:06 GMT -6
Hi weaning weight and yearling weights seem come with frame creep. More you for bigger better faster the bigger the cows get. I wont disagree but it hasnt happened here yet. Increased ww 100# mature cow size actually went down. Used to have lot 1600# cows. Heaviest one I've sold at weaning 2 years ago was 1528#. I've actually been trying to get cows bigger. |
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Post by elkwc on Jul 14, 2019 14:26:42 GMT -6
Tillhill, I’m having a hard time following your paragraph. You’re saying that have your calves were AI sired and the other half as clean up... and that the cleanup bull progeny weaned 14lbs lighter? I wouldn’t honestly recommend retaining your own bull in a commercial setting unless he’s an aI over an aI over an aI... if that makes sense. Our commercial bulls that we’ve sold, have done our commercial cattlemen a lot of good. But our girls, even as commercial stock are pretty much damn near PB. We’ve AI’d our cattle for 20 years and only retain AId calves or bulls. I can’t say I’d keep a homegrown bull that had just mates with a salebarn cow and I liked the looks of him. If that’s what you’re train of thought is. I personally don't agree with the train of thought a bull needs to be AI sired or AI sired over Ai sired. AI sires have created many of the issues Angus and Herefords are experiencing today. Being an AI sire doesn't make a bull great or good. The last 2 Angus bulls we have bought are sired by home raised sires. The breeder is PB and uses many of the top AI sires. Progeny from his home raised sires consistently out perform those sired by AI sires. All bull calves retained are put in a grow safe test. Those sired by home raised sires have been the top sire groups most years. I see commercial herds as good as most PB herds. It strikes me wrong when someone implies all good cattle are AI sired. |
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Post by franklinridgefarms on Jul 14, 2019 14:51:04 GMT -6
For my herd, I would not necessarily just keep any ol' bull calf to use, but I really don't think that AI sired is always the only option to consider. If I like the result a bull is getting, and I have a good cow that has been consistent in calf raising and rebreeding, then if she has a bull calf he is considered a possibility. I usually keep 2 or 3 and winter them to see how they look as yearlings. Then If I need a bull in a pinch then I have a spare. I agree with Elkwc, in that I think such heavy reliance on AI sires and I will throw in over reliance on EPD's as having had at least some degree of negative effect on breeds such as Angus and Herefords. I think that a lot of folks have bought in to the hype that AI sires are superior and that just because they are in a catalog, or have a certain prefix that they are going to be vastly better than anything else. I don't have anything to quantify my theory but I seriously believe that a reliance on other outfit's genetics has caused a lot of reproductive issues as well as feet and others, when an individual brings some of the various regional genetics into their herds.
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Post by 11111 on Jul 14, 2019 15:50:36 GMT -6
Tillhill, I’m having a hard time following your paragraph. You’re saying that have your calves were AI sired and the other half as clean up... and that the cleanup bull progeny weaned 14lbs lighter? I wouldn’t honestly recommend retaining your own bull in a commercial setting unless he’s an aI over an aI over an aI... if that makes sense. Our commercial bulls that we’ve sold, have done our commercial cattlemen a lot of good. But our girls, even as commercial stock are pretty much damn near PB. We’ve AI’d our cattle for 20 years and only retain AId calves or bulls. I can’t say I’d keep a homegrown bull that had just mates with a salebarn cow and I liked the looks of him. If that’s what you’re train of thought is. I personally don't agree with the train of thought a bull needs to be AI sired or AI sired over Ai sired. AI sires have created many of the issues Angus and Herefords are experiencing today. Being an AI sire doesn't make a bull great or good. The last 2 Angus bulls we have bought are sired by home raised sires. The breeder is PB and uses many of the top AI sires. Progeny from his home raised sires consistently out perform those sired by AI sires. All bull calves retained are put in a grow safe test. Those sired by home raised sires have been the top sire groups most years. I see commercial herds as good as most PB herds. It strikes me wrong when someone implies all good cattle are AI sired. I see your train of thought and I understand it. Where I am coming from is your normal commercial cow/calf operation whom may have a mix of mommas with no background on their pedigrees. If I liked a bull that my momma raised, I’d likely DNA it before I put it out there. The reason an AI is important is because it absolves you for the most part of wondering what kind of calf it’s going to throw. I.E. birthweights, weaning... I’d use my own bulls because I know 3-4 generations back, on both sides. But I don’t know that an average operation is able to do the same? Most our cattle have been home raised, generations back. I had to buy some 3-1s to fill pasture this year that I wasn’t planning on having. I honestly don’t want to calve those girls come winter. They could be bred to a longhorn for all I know. I kind of feel that’s the same luck you get if you don’t have a solid herd that you’ve built for many years. I’m not saying the original OP is a newbie. But for conversation and lurkers, a home raised bull isn’t your best option if there is another one. |
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Post by 11111 on Jul 14, 2019 15:54:25 GMT -6
I personally don't agree with the train of thought a bull needs to be AI sired or AI sired over Ai sired. AI sires have created many of the issues Angus and Herefords are experiencing today. Being an AI sire doesn't make a bull great or good. The last 2 Angus bulls we have bought are sired by home raised sires. The breeder is PB and uses many of the top AI sires. Progeny from his home raised sires consistently out perform those sired by AI sires. All bull calves retained are put in a grow safe test. Those sired by home raised sires have been the top sire groups most years. I see commercial herds as good as most PB herds. It strikes me wrong when someone implies all good cattle are AI sired. I see your train of thought and I understand it. Where I am coming from is your normal commercial cow/calf operation whom may have a mix of mommas with no background on their pedigrees. If I liked a bull that my momma raised, I’d likely DNA it before I put it out there. The reason an AI is important is because it absolves you for the most part of wondering what kind of calf it’s going to throw. I.E. birthweights, weaning... I’d use my own bulls because I know 3-4 generations back, on both sides. But I don’t know that an average operation is able to do the same? Most our cattle have been home raised, generations back. I had to buy some 3-1s to fill pasture this year that I wasn’t planning on having. I honestly don’t want to calve those girls come winter. They could be bred to a longhorn for all I know. I kind of feel that’s the same luck you get if you don’t have a solid herd that you’ve built for many years. I’m not saying the original OP is a newbie. But for conversation and lurkers, a home raised bull isn’t your best option if there is another one. And the PB operation is not technically a home raised, it’s been serviced by a PB angus. I’m stating a commercial operation using a commercial bull bred by a commercial bull. We AI’d many of our commercial girls to our PB home raised bull this spring. So I look at AI as PB. |
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Post by randy on Jul 14, 2019 16:06:30 GMT -6
I find it difficult to spend much on semen from a bull with no calves on the ground when you can buy semen on bulls with a proven track record. If you think you have been breeding the to the best you have for any amount of time you should be producing better each time. Some times it works and sometimes it doesn't.
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Post by okie on Jul 14, 2019 16:21:11 GMT -6
I completely understand the AI on top of AI concept BUT with genomics and epd's I have seen a few herds get so far off track that it takes a few generations to get back. AI is a fantastic tool but make sure you're using progeny proven at least every other generation. If you really want to see the whole picture, grab a catalog and circle the top fifteen new EPD wonders and track them over the course of their career. They'll all be DNA tested yet on average only one of them will still be in the catalog two years later. Those are the ones you want to use.
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Post by 3LT Farms on Jul 14, 2019 17:44:42 GMT -6
I look around and see the bulls in everyone's pastures around here and I'm getting tempted to start selling bulls...😂
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Post by randy on Jul 14, 2019 18:31:10 GMT -6
OP has registered cattle and as far as i know buys registered bulls. Seems blind luck would get him one good enough to use.
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