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Post by dave on Jul 14, 2019 19:10:13 GMT -6
One of my neighbors runs 900 pairs. He has a small herd of 30 registered cows. To be exact 18 Charolais and 12 Black Angus. I helped him do a timed AI. He keeps the bull calves to breed to a portion of the commercial cows. He cleans them up with a Hereford bull that way he is sure which are the AI calves and which are not. I know that he had 6 Chars and 4 Angus young bulls in a separate pasture this winter. They were from his breeding program. I know he also buys some bulls. I have been there when a breeder delivered some Angus bulls. And about 150 of his cows are Waygu and he doesn't raise any of those bulls. I recognized the brand on the Angus cows. They come from a top of the line Angus breeder. How much would ten young bulls out of quality cows bred to good AI bulls cost at a bull sale? I am certain he didn't have that much into them.
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Post by highgrit on Jul 14, 2019 19:33:26 GMT -6
OP has registered cattle and as far as i know buys registered bulls. Seems blind luck would get him one good enough to use. I've never been able to raise good looking calves without creep feeding. It's pretty easy to go buy a couple of decent registered young bulls that have been fed and turn them out. I have a decent looking young bull calf that I'm going to wait and see what happens. I've just been keeping my calves an extra month to make the weight like when I was creep feeding. For us it's a lot less work, expense for same money. |
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Post by jehosofat on Jul 14, 2019 19:46:29 GMT -6
I can't imagine going through all the trouble and expense of AI for 14 more lbs of weaning weight over a cleanup bull. You're losing money, I guarantee it. Some folks can't see the forrest for the trees.
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Post by highgrit on Jul 14, 2019 19:56:18 GMT -6
I can't imagine going through all the trouble and expense of AI for 14 more lbs of weaning weight over a cleanup bull. You're losing money, I guarantee it. Some folks can't see the forrest for the trees. And if their like me, most folks AI what they think are there best cows. |
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Post by randy on Jul 14, 2019 20:29:12 GMT -6
OP has registered cattle and as far as i know buys registered bulls. Seems blind luck would get him one good enough to use. I've never been able to raise good looking calves without creep feeding. It's pretty easy to go buy a couple of decent registered young bulls that have been fed and turn them out. I have a decent looking young bull calf that I'm going to wait and see what happens. I've just been keeping my calves an extra month to make the weight like when I was creep feeding. For us it's a lot less work, expense for same money. Grit that good looking calf isn't going to look like the pig fat feed from day one bulls. It will take him longer but he will last enough longer to make it worth it. Just don't put him to work to quick. Run him on grass till he is two and see what he does. |
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Post by tillhill on Jul 14, 2019 20:46:39 GMT -6
I can't imagine going through all the trouble and expense of AI for 14 more lbs of weaning weight over a cleanup bull. You're losing money, I guarantee it. Some folks can't see the forrest for the trees. That's why we love America, we can all do what we want. I'm telling you that 14# last year was my profit. That's what I made running beef cows after work. I ain't got daddy's ranch or rich uncle. This is me myself and I that started with nothing and I still got some of it. I've bought a house, built a shed and added whole bunch of cattle equipment. Cows paid for that. You dont have to listen to me. I can see the forest the trees and the future of my operation. |
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Post by highgrit on Jul 14, 2019 21:07:25 GMT -6
I can't imagine going through all the trouble and expense of AI for 14 more lbs of weaning weight over a cleanup bull. You're losing money, I guarantee it. Some folks can't see the forrest for the trees. That's why we love America, we can all do what we want. I'm telling you that 14# last year was my profit. That's what I made running beef cows after work. I ain't got daddy's ranch or rich uncle. This is me myself and I that started with nothing and I still got some of it. I've bought a house, built a shed and added whole bunch of cattle equipment. Cows paid for that. You dont have to listen to me. I can see the forest the trees and the future of my operation. 14# of calf won't even buy the straw of semen. I do both like you and usually see better results out of the AI calves. But I for sure AI what I think are my best cows. |
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Post by jehosofat on Jul 14, 2019 21:09:02 GMT -6
I can't imagine going through all the trouble and expense of AI for 14 more lbs of weaning weight over a cleanup bull. You're losing money, I guarantee it. Some folks can't see the forrest for the trees. That's why we love America, we can all do what we want. I'm telling you that 14# last year was my profit. That's what I made running beef cows after work. I ain't got daddy's ranch or rich uncle. This is me myself and I that started with nothing and I still got some of it. I've bought a house, built a shed and added whole bunch of cattle equipment. Cows paid for that. You dont have to listen to me. I can see the forest the trees and the future of my operation. Don't get your panties all in a wad, just questioning the money aspect of it. How much did you pay per straw for your semen, what does your AI guy charge, how much did your storage tank cost, what did you pay for your protocal shots, etc. If all that adds up to more than 21.00 dollars each, your not seeing the forest or the trees. Just sayin. |
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Post by tillhill on Jul 14, 2019 21:10:38 GMT -6
That's why we love America, we can all do what we want. I'm telling you that 14# last year was my profit. That's what I made running beef cows after work. I ain't got daddy's ranch or rich uncle. This is me myself and I that started with nothing and I still got some of it. I've bought a house, built a shed and added whole bunch of cattle equipment. Cows paid for that. You dont have to listen to me. I can see the forest the trees and the future of my operation. 14# of calf won't even buy the straw of semen. I do both like you and usually see better results out of the AI calves. But I for sure AI what I think are my best cows. Buying in bulk when I custom ai couple hundred cows I dont pay close to retail for semen. Lots of semen is landed for $15-20 I use 400 units of dairy semen and work with a buddy that buys 600 units every other year. We bought a $40 bull last year for $14 |
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Post by tillhill on Jul 14, 2019 21:16:54 GMT -6
That's why we love America, we can all do what we want. I'm telling you that 14# last year was my profit. That's what I made running beef cows after work. I ain't got daddy's ranch or rich uncle. This is me myself and I that started with nothing and I still got some of it. I've bought a house, built a shed and added whole bunch of cattle equipment. Cows paid for that. You dont have to listen to me. I can see the forest the trees and the future of my operation. Don't get your panties all in a wad, just questioning the money aspect of it. How much did you pay per straw for your semen, what does your AI guy charge, how much did your storage tank cost, what did you pay for your protocal shots, etc. If all that adds up to more than 21.00 dollars each, your not seeing the forest or the trees. Just sayin. my panties ain't in a wad, made me laugh actually. Average semen I'd guess $15, ai guy is man your talking to, drugs well depends on cow or heifer. Heifers we mga and lute and watch heats. Costs $4/head. Cows I lute, watch a week and cidr non responders. So average $10/head. I ai not for steers. We are selling all cows carrying bull calves this fall is the plan. We ai to make more better cows. Females is my bread and butter. Sold $3500 pairs and $3000 bred cows spring of '13? Sold commercial type pairs this spring for $1800 bank is paid, my kids are fed and I even bought the family a utv |
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Post by highgrit on Jul 14, 2019 21:27:01 GMT -6
14# of calf won't even buy the straw of semen. I do both like you and usually see better results out of the AI calves. But I for sure AI what I think are my best cows. Buying in bulk when I custom ai couple hundred cows I dont pay close to retail for semen. Lots of semen is landed for $15-20 I use 400 units of dairy semen and work with a buddy that buys 600 units every other year. We bought a $40 bull last year for $14 I might know a thing or two about buying and selling semen. If your in middle to NE Georgia and need any SS semen I can fix you up. |
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Post by tillhill on Jul 14, 2019 21:39:32 GMT -6
Buying in bulk when I custom ai couple hundred cows I dont pay close to retail for semen. Lots of semen is landed for $15-20 I use 400 units of dairy semen and work with a buddy that buys 600 units every other year. We bought a $40 bull last year for $14 I might know a thing or two about buying and selling semen. If your in middle to NE Georgia and need any SS semen I can fix you up. Thanks grit. Was out of the county 3 times last year and about same do far this year! I'll let you know this winter on our order for spring and see what you can do it for. Father in law is Semex man in our area, couple life long friends at Abs and Select sires and genex has a really good guy here. |
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Post by franklinridgefarms on Jul 15, 2019 8:59:33 GMT -6
My take on AI is this, it can be a great way to improve your herd and to bring in out cross genetics, but not all AI bulls are great and or herd improvers. 4 yrs ago we used a TAI protocol to AI 55 head of heifers and cows, mostly commercial. The TAI doesn't work nearly as well for us as when we were just lutalysing twice and breeding them after observed heat. We used to get around 90% conception on observed heat, nearly 30 years ago. Now in recent times with the TAI we got anywhere from 20%-50% conception and our calving season strung out as a result. For us AI just isn't worth the hassle and expense for no better results. The need for cleanup bulls is still there, so it doesn't really make sense to have the bulls and go through the AI process for a commercial herd, at least that is our take on it. If someone is doing their own AI work on their own timing then that could make it more practical.
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Post by tillhill on Jul 15, 2019 9:50:39 GMT -6
My take on AI is this, it can be a great way to improve your herd and to bring in out cross genetics, but not all AI bulls are great and or herd improvers. 4 yrs ago we used a TAI protocol to AI 55 head of heifers and cows, mostly commercial. The TAI doesn't work nearly as well for us as when we were just lutalysing twice and breeding them after observed heat. We used to get around 90% conception on observed heat, nearly 30 years ago. Now in recent times with the TAI we got anywhere from 20%-50% conception and our calving season strung out as a result. For us AI just isn't worth the hassle and expense for no better results. The need for cleanup bulls is still there, so it doesn't really make sense to have the bulls and go through the AI process for a commercial herd, at least that is our take on it. If someone is doing their own AI work on their own timing then that could make it more practical. TAI using Cidr's or what were you doing? MGA custom job 9 or 10 years average 77% on commercial Angus heifers. Cidr's we typically run 65% or so. And them are non-responders to lute shot week before. 1 thing I keep forgetting to mention is AI bulls have a huge record base. Once a bull is really proven in that 90% accuracy level you really know what you got. Clean up bull is going to sire 100 calves in his life. AI bulls there are some out there that are registering 6,000 calves a year. Just talking about a bull here I like. Catitalist 028 born in 2010, has 2285 CED records, 8420 BW, 8246 WW 4679 YW. A walking bull will never provide that much data. Yes you may get lucky. I like the high probability risks when breeding cattle that it will turn out. |
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Post by franklinridgefarms on Jul 15, 2019 10:23:38 GMT -6
My take on AI is this, it can be a great way to improve your herd and to bring in out cross genetics, but not all AI bulls are great and or herd improvers. 4 yrs ago we used a TAI protocol to AI 55 head of heifers and cows, mostly commercial. The TAI doesn't work nearly as well for us as when we were just lutalysing twice and breeding them after observed heat. We used to get around 90% conception on observed heat, nearly 30 years ago. Now in recent times with the TAI we got anywhere from 20%-50% conception and our calving season strung out as a result. For us AI just isn't worth the hassle and expense for no better results. The need for cleanup bulls is still there, so it doesn't really make sense to have the bulls and go through the AI process for a commercial herd, at least that is our take on it. If someone is doing their own AI work on their own timing then that could make it more practical. TAI using Cidr's or what were you doing? MGA custom job 9 or 10 years average 77% on commercial Angus heifers. Cidr's we typically run 65% or so. And them are non-responders to lute shot week before. 1 thing I keep forgetting to mention is AI bulls have a huge record base. Once a bull is really proven in that 90% accuracy level you really know what you got. Clean up bull is going to sire 100 calves in his life. AI bulls there are some out there that are registering 6,000 calves a year. Just talking about a bull here I like. Catitalist 028 born in 2010, has 2285 CED records, 8420 BW, 8246 WW 4679 YW. A walking bull will never provide that much data. Yes you may get lucky. I like the high probability risks when breeding cattle that it will turn out. Yes, it was TAI with Cidr's and the heifers were mainly commercial Angus and BWF heifers that were in good condition. It was done by ABS reps. I understand the concept of accuracy based on heavier usage, but I still maintain that for commercial use sons of those proven AI bulls out of cows that are reliable are still very viable and acceptable. We have usually 30 or more heifers bred each year, some sold and some kept by us and calved out. We have apparently been fortunate in using purchased herd bulls and or our own home raised bulls, and our results from calving have been good both from ours and from customers. Interestingly enough the only known issues that we have had feed back on came from heifers bred AI. One was an apparent difficult birth because of a large calf, the sire of the calf was a very proven and promoted CE bull, the other was an extremely small calf from another well proven CE bull. I'm not saying it couldn't happen from any situation AI or not, but certainly the accuracy wasn't total security. There are risks involved with anything, and I personally believe that there are so many factors and variables at play that can negate those accuracies significantly. |
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